Arguing With Marxist Idiots:
I read carefully the concerns stated by the Organizers of the OWS Movement folks in Springfield, Missouri and discovered that I was in almost complete agreement with the statement. A friend said, "Do you realize that every concern they have is answered by Herman Cain's 9-9-9 Plan. Someone ought to engage them and see if they can speak reasonably." I decided to try.
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Occupy Springfield Missouri: reason for protests from their official Face Book Page.
"We, the members of the Occupy Springfield, MO movement, hereby declare our decision to stand in solidarity with our brothers and sisters participating in the Occupy Movements across our country and the world. It is in this spirit that we, the 99% of Springfield, are practicing our constitutional right to peaceably assemble and in this spirit that we protest what we - and many, MANY others around our great land - can only describe as a horrifying travesty; the ongoing, unabashed corruption that is poisoning our financial and legislative systems.
For a long time we have remained silent as the elected officials we trusted to hear our cries for change, both Republican and Democrat, pandered to us for our votes and then sold theirs for campaign funds.
For a long time we have dutifully trudged to our jobs, budgeting strictly to make ends meet, as Congress asked for pay raises and CEOs received multi-million dollar bonuses.
For a long time we have stoically accepted the taxation of our earnings even as multinational corporations avoid them by hiding assets overseas.
For a long time we have been told to respect the rule of law and what it stands for even as the media brought us numerous examples of money's power to circumvent justice.
It is now our belief that we have waited TOO long.
No longer shall we stand idly by as our politicians sell their votes to the highest bidder.
No longer shall we tolerate the growing disparity being created as a byproduct of rampant greed and lack of compassion for fellow human beings.
No longer shall we accept the corrupt practices of those who would manipulate our
legal and economic systems to benefit the few over the many.
No longer shall we allow a person's wealth to sway the course of due process in our
judicial system.
NO LONGER!
It is time for all of us - not only those of us here in Springfield but all over the
world - to stand up and make our voices heard! Together we are louder than the media, more solid than steel, and more powerful than any politician that money can buy. If we wish to save our country - our world - from the economic enslavement being established today then it is our duty as citizens of humanity to take a stand not only for ourselves today but for the future that we ALL share.
We are Occupy Springfield, Missouri. We stand in solidarity with the Occupy Movement all around the globe. This planet belongs to all of us and we simply will not have it any other way."
I read the statement defining the reasons for "the cause" and I'm more than a little mystified. Here I thought that nothing but radicals and revolutionaries were involved in these demonstration. Like I say I'm rather mystified. I'm anything but "radical" and I agreed with every paragraph as to the abuses of Washington and Wall Street, the crony capitalism, the manipulation of the population through corruption and mis-use of power. Yet all these observations that are quite true, led me to a very different course of action. I understand mine, I'm mystified at yours.
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Things As They Are (I tried to open a dialogue) :
Things As They Are (I tried to open a dialogue) :
Please don't come at me with a lot of invective, but what I'm about to say is TRUE. None of the things you mention can be righted until the Federal Government is force to cede power and give up it's major tools used to enrich a few. The major tool it uses, that creates the inequities you mention and the corruption is the 82,000 page monstrosity known as the U.S. Federal Tax Code. Herman Cain has promised through his 9-9-9 plan to completely abolish the Federal Tax code (all 82,000 pages of it) and replace it with a simple and totally transparent 9-9-9 tax plan.
There are a lot of bogus websites making all sorts of claims about Herman's plan, but it is so simple most anyone with a calculator can see that it really is a good plan. The Establishment is coming at him like a pack of howling wolves because he genuinely threatens them and the status quo. In Washington D.C. there are nearly 125 registered lobbyist for every single member of the House and Senate. His plan would but 80% of them out of business, because their entire career is made manipulating the tax code by legally bribing politicians. Bottom line is - I don't understand why you guys aren't out campaigning for him instead of wasting so much time playing "sit in." This proposal is "major" the most radical thing I've seen in my life time and there is a real good chance that the GOP is going to nominate him.
Herman Cain :: 9-9-9 Means Jobs
www.supporthermancain.com
My "9-9-9 Plan" ends government oppression and creates 6 million jobs. Obama doesn't want you to know, because he doesn't want me to win.
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Midge answered reasonably:
Personally, I am for abolishing the IRS, and ultimately doing away with income tax. I like the Fair Tax concept in theory, but I'm not familiar with Cain's 9-9-9 plan. Without a doubt, our nation really needs to have a great taxation debate, and all alternative ideas should be given great consideration!
Personally, I am for abolishing the IRS, and ultimately doing away with income tax. I like the Fair Tax concept in theory, but I'm not familiar with Cain's 9-9-9 plan. Without a doubt, our nation really needs to have a great taxation debate, and all alternative ideas should be given great consideration!
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Marsha answered in the manner I describe in my article on the Devolution of Education in America found on this blog. She's immediately angry and dismissive.
Really Hermain Cane????? 9-9-9 cuts for the wealthy tax hikes for the poor! Republicans #1 agenda NO TAX for them and their cronies......just what I am going to vote for....not if I have a breathe in me. Maybe if I lose my mind . What Mystifies me is that anyone would consider voting for these people.
Bill Jr answers equally dismissively immediately painting me as a dishonest person:
Any time something begins with phrases like "the secret way to" or "what they don't want you to know" or "what they won't tell you" you're being had my friends! It diciet and lies and at the very least misinformation designed to attract those who lack knowledge on the subject. SCAMS! Make it a secret and everyone wants to know and people are very gullable.
Then Bill Jr decides that he will destroy me with "logic."
Well Butch, I'm afraid you're playing the wrong song and in the wrong key. The tax code needs to be overhauled to a more simplified plan that is fairat all income levels, but while 9-9-9 may have catchy lyrics, it translates from the old facisit play to no-no-no! If you make a mere $150K a year, you will have roughly a 10% cost of living increase, not a big deal at that income level, if you make less than $50K a year your purchasing power is drastically effected and if you are one of the millions of the poor, paying 9% more for a coat or can of beans is significant. It plays very well for the 1%, 9-9-9 is a disaster for the lower half. I suggest you figure your taxes under the 9-9-9, consider everything you purchase after paying 9% of your income over a year and see where you'd be. I doubt you'll want to play that tune.........Another issues is the Republican plans of doing away with several agencies, while they too need to be trimmed, you can't just turn over certain aspects of safety and corporate regulation to states as they are more influenced by money than at the federal level. Besides that, Cain doesn't have a clue and appears that he would be nothing more than a follower taking instructions from those who influenced him the most, like the Koch brothers!!!!! He's the flavor of the month, IMO among the worst field of canidates I have ever seen in 6 decades. I suggest you pick a side that will benefit YOU the most, not waste your vote on some dream team or for those backing big money. After that, go in and begin changing that party and nibble away at change one bite at a time until you get where you need to be.
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Things As They Are:
Bill Jr, what you say defies common sense. Today it is the consensus among all tax experts that presently in every product you buy there is a 20 to 30% hidden tax cost in the retail price of the product.
Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan completely removes all hidden taxes, so that everyone will know at every point what the tax is. You stated in another stream that it would unjustly impact the poor. Frankly that's hogwash. Even the poor if they are employed pay 15.3 percent payroll tax, even if they pay NO income tax. The plan takes the income tax to ZERO if they are below the line of poverty, and abolishes the payroll tax and replaces it with 9%. That's a 6.3 percent savings. Then the 9% sales tax has to be compared to the 20% to 30% hidden taxes in the products they purchase. Meaning that on their purchases they would pay much less. Your choice and Ms. Marsha's to demonize me instead of doing your homework strikes me that maybe you are fearful of some honest debate. Here is a retail tax calculator for the 9-9-9 plan, it is so simple really, anyone ought to be able to get it.
http://www.nerds4cain.com/Blog/archives/917
9-9-9 Plan Retail Price Calculator | Nerds 4 Cain
www.nerds4cain.com
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Bill Jr:
Dr Butch, if you think jobs are a part of the plan for "expanding the economy" you haven't been paying much attention to the realities of the last 4 (or 40) years. (The economy is expanding without a growing job market.) When you boil it down to essentially "jobs" rather than "quality of life" you miss the point of Adam Smith's original economic theory of capitalism. (Not that I agree wholeheartedly with Smith - I don't. But his intentions were that as the wealth of a nation increases - so does the quality of life of its inhabitants. We're on a downhill slide from that at this point.) No - I don't want my grandchildren to be holding down jobs at 10, 12, or 14 years of age. (Cain's plan) I want them to be educated. No I don't want my Social Security investment opened up to the liars & thieves of Wall Street who control the liars & thieves in politics. (Cain's plan) To suggest that a simple reduction in taxes is worth trading for all the advancements of the middle class through the early and middle 20th century is lunacy. Even if there is a tax savings for the working calss (many economists disagree with you on that) it is just handing out crumbs with one hand while picking your pocket with the other.
Dr Butch, if you think jobs are a part of the plan for "expanding the economy" you haven't been paying much attention to the realities of the last 4 (or 40) years. (The economy is expanding without a growing job market.) When you boil it down to essentially "jobs" rather than "quality of life" you miss the point of Adam Smith's original economic theory of capitalism. (Not that I agree wholeheartedly with Smith - I don't. But his intentions were that as the wealth of a nation increases - so does the quality of life of its inhabitants. We're on a downhill slide from that at this point.) No - I don't want my grandchildren to be holding down jobs at 10, 12, or 14 years of age. (Cain's plan) I want them to be educated. No I don't want my Social Security investment opened up to the liars & thieves of Wall Street who control the liars & thieves in politics. (Cain's plan) To suggest that a simple reduction in taxes is worth trading for all the advancements of the middle class through the early and middle 20th century is lunacy. Even if there is a tax savings for the working calss (many economists disagree with you on that) it is just handing out crumbs with one hand while picking your pocket with the other.
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Things As They Are:
Bill, I'll assume that you are a person of character and when you say things that are factually untrue it isn't with a motive to deceive, etc. so I asks that you give me the same courtesy and we will have an interesting dialog. Too bad that this isn't on the Page so others could observe.
Firstly your assessment about the expansion of the economy not tied to jobs is only partly true. The lagging jobs to expansion has been purposeful, a purposeful lowering of the standard of living in the United States, manipulated via the U.S. Federal Tax Code and some insane regulations by some departments of government. If you doubt this, I can get you the transcript of the famous speech by Richard Nixon stating that the standard of living in the U.S. had to be reduced so that sooner or later the "world stage" would be an equal playing field. He was as much an internationalist as George Soros. And policies were set in place in the 1970s to accomplish this, so your observation is "partly" right. And yes, we have been on a downhill slide since Nixon's speech. The fact that the Central Government has had the power to accomplish this, working with the largest corporations through the Tax Code (credits and subsides) is immoral and they need to be robbed of the tool they have used to accomplish this.
Next the child labor accusation against Cain is wrong. But even if it were correct, I went to work at the age of 14 and worked until I could afford not to, in the mean time educated myself. In the course of my life I've been a nursing home administrator, a railroad engineer, a piano tuner and musician, an prison chaplain, a visual artist and made money each step of the way etc. Working is not a bad thing. It gives humans dignity.
Next Social Security - your statement made me laugh.
(1) Who would want their social security available to thieves? Not ME. But it has been available to thieves all my life. Having live long enough to remember the lies told when the program was started and the pretend "social security TRUST fund" which was exposed in all its fraud when this summer Obama stated that he would not be able to send out SS checks if the debt ceiling wasn't raised proved that there is NO social security trust fund, that SS is merely an unfunded entitlement. What funds it claims to have are in U.S. T Notes. You see as it turns out the robbers and thieves IN THE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT already raided the SS trust fund, many years ago. It is based solely on the "good credit" of the U.S. Government and that was down graded this summer.
(2) And Herman Cain is not suggesting that anyone's SS be "privatized." He suggests the Chilean model, that is a "Government Guaranteed" OPTION. So far those in Chile who have opted for the program (read 100%) have retired with better than the government Guarantee. Not a single individual has had to fall back on the government program. Facts are stubborn things.
Your next argument is a straw man: I'm not suggesting "trading" anything. I'm suggesting a way to create opportunity. For instance, you name that the major inequity is the lack of jobs created by the economic expansion (I wrote extensively on this subject in the early 1990s predicting the situation we are in today.) Fact: in the 9-9-9 plan all products produced in the U.S. and exported would NOT be taxed on any level. This would make our product very competitive in markets where the 20 to 30% taxes now added in the process of manufacture would be totally eliminated. This is a massively job creation move. The majority of jobs lost in the U.S. have been manufacturing jobs and it is caused by two things:
(1) cheaper products imported where the American manufacture could not compete (primarily because of taxation) with Socialist Slave labor or exploitive capitalist labor abroad.
(2) the displacements caused by technology. These displacements have been much less than the "futurists presumed" in decades past predicted. They failed to account for the type of jobs new technology would produce - an expansion in products available and even industries they didn't envision. There has been a lot of displacement but not the decimation predicted by the likes of anti-technology radicals like the Uni-bomber and some academic types.
If you investigated Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan rather than take second party's word for it you might come to some different conclusions.
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Marsha answers trying to sound logical:
I am not going to waste my time debating you....what you are trying to sell is totally nothing that a sane person or one of the 99% should be buying....and if anything the Republican party had to say was to be believed then I want one person to answer one question....the Bush tax cuts were so jobs would be created.....well under the plan..we have higher unemployment then ever...worst recession..So I guess going by the performance of the 8 years we had this Tax Cuts for the rich job creators it has proven itself that it is not true, a lie, and that under Reagan(the republcian God) and Clinton who both raised taxes Jobs were created and we had a great economy....
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Bill Jr answers a little more shaken and less sure of himself:
Taxes and jobs are simply a false economic premis invented by the new corporate Republicans to justify lower taxes. As the owner of a business, I don't hire another employee because I get to take home more of my profits and paying less in taxes. Wasn't that the argument from the Bush tax cuts? Yes it was, so where are the jobs? ......... You were a minister? So was my grandfather, he feed thieves during the depression, not many ministers like that anymore. Most today have found they like the powerin society stiring up their true believers against others. He was just a minister, that's all he did, never had other jobs just a small town Christian church. No, we are done, no foul, this is not a site for political dialog. There is never an end to arguing with an extremeist. Good luck with your man!
Things As They Are:
Guys, sad to say, your demonizing me when you can't answer with reason my arguments isn't surprising. Here's why I understand you.
(My article on the Devolution of Education in America - which points out that the Progressivist have for two generations been conditioning these folk to be "useful idiots" unable to reason or entertain facts that challenge their conditioning paradigm)
HOW We Think Determines WHAT We Think
The Devolution of American Education
drbutchandcompany.blogspot.com
Continued . . .
Marsha, God Bless her just rants without basis. Bill, you clearly see the problems with the economy but your accusation painting Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan as "Republican business as usual- lower taxes mythology" doesn't wash. The 9-9-9 plan IS NOT just a matter of lowering taxes, it is a complete and radical restructuring of the Federal Government, robbing it of its manipulative powers and frankly from most of my conversations with OWS people that is exactly what they don't want. Most want to retain and add tools to manipulate the population, businesses and institutions in a Centralized Marxist form.
Silence . . . . Silence . . . Silence . . .
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David Cort
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David Cort
Today's 999 Rant
One of the arguments you will hear from Socialists, Occupiers, and uneducated public is "What makes you think that when the hidden taxes on the price of a candy bar go away, the greedy corporation will pass those savings on to me?" What makes me think it is, corporate greed works! When the government gets out of the way and opens the door to economic expansion, capitalism works.
Company H and company N make chocolate bars. Reduce the 22% hidden tax built into the cost of a candy bar and replace it with a 9% transparent tax and the company stands to make a bunch more money. But, corporate greed dictates that N sell more candy bars than H. It also dictates than H sell more candy bars than N. The ONLY single federal law we need to keep this working is the one that keep N and H from fixing the price of candy bars. And really, that's not even needed. Because with the 22% gone, with the 9% tax all transparent competition thrives. With the cost of producing candy bars and hiring people and growing now contained and unadulterated by federal tax code favoritism and punishment; new companies X, Y, and Z are sudden start-ups they couldn't afford to be last year - and they are just as greedy for your business. You say, "in theory." I say "in fact." Capitalism works, corporate greed works - in fact. From 1776 to the mid 60's, it built a nation of enviable economic power, a nation of citizens who enjoyed the highest standard of living in history, and a nation that powered an entire world out of depression, recession, war, and famine time and time again. It works. Fact, not fiction.
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Bill Jr. put up a Wiki article about the Chilean retirement model saying that it was in trouble, when the article did not say that. But these Marxists leading the "useful idiots" know that most of the idiots won't read past a headline. So when I refuted his claim he cowardly deleted his entry. He couldn't let the entry stand because it showed clearly the distinction between a Socialist Failure and a Capitalist Success model.
Bill Jr. put up a Wiki article about the Chilean retirement model saying that it was in trouble, when the article did not say that. But these Marxists leading the "useful idiots" know that most of the idiots won't read past a headline. So when I refuted his claim he cowardly deleted his entry. He couldn't let the entry stand because it showed clearly the distinction between a Socialist Failure and a Capitalist Success model.
Things As They Are:
Their private pension funds held by four different companies, the minimum retirement guaranteed by the government amount to 52.77 of their Gross National Product. 53% of our GDP is 8 trillion dollars. They have that in reserve, being invested, creating opportunities, and ours SS System is BROKE. The so-called SS Trust fund is actually only American debt - creating NO opportunities. Really, which do you think is better? In 2008 they "tweeked" their system to keep it solvent. We've "tweeked" our system three times in my life (major social security reform) meaning pay more to the stolen, and OURS IS BROKE.
Here is what happens to the money "invested" in our SS fund:
"Tax income is deposited on a daily basis and is invested in "special-issue" securities. The cash exchanged for the securities goes into the general fund of the Treasury and is indistinguishable from other cash in the general fund." In other words the Federal Government deposits the SS payments into the "general fund" and the Treasury give the famous lock box an IOU.
Bill Jr:
Butch, The abolition of child labor laws is a Republican talking point and Newt's high profile mention is not the first time it's been raised. Cain's rise to economic prominance was based largely in an industry that thrives on youngest and most po...orly paid legally allowed labor. What on earth makes you think that if 10 and 12 year olds could be exploited that Cain would not have done so? Sorry - but the only evidence of how child labor effects society as a whole can only be derived from a time when we didn't have them and from countries where they still don't have them. That is an uneducated work force, with short lifespans that exist solely for the pleasure of the aristocracy. What makes you think education is not work? And more productive work for society as a whole than making pizzas or performing janitorial work?
Butch, The abolition of child labor laws is a Republican talking point and Newt's high profile mention is not the first time it's been raised. Cain's rise to economic prominance was based largely in an industry that thrives on youngest and most po...orly paid legally allowed labor. What on earth makes you think that if 10 and 12 year olds could be exploited that Cain would not have done so? Sorry - but the only evidence of how child labor effects society as a whole can only be derived from a time when we didn't have them and from countries where they still don't have them. That is an uneducated work force, with short lifespans that exist solely for the pleasure of the aristocracy. What makes you think education is not work? And more productive work for society as a whole than making pizzas or performing janitorial work?
Also, Cain's largest contributors have been of the global corporate variety. How on earth do you jump to the conclusion that we will suddenly revert to a manufacturing basis under the "leadership" of a person who's own masters are particula...rly fierce in their oposition to anything that resembles reduced access to a cheap and brutalized labor pool? The best solution to fighting corporate greed and dominance is a socialist one that the U.S. (yes, the U.S.) imposed on Germany at the end of WW II where corporate board of directors where evenly divided between workers (unions) and corporate officers. (6 each) Among western nations, Germany, which to a great degree has maintained that system, has also maintained a positive trade balance and maintains a high manufacturing sector in their GDP.
Things As They Are:
Bill your assessment of Cain's stance on child labor is pure fantasy. You are ascribing to Herman Cain an off-handed remark by Newt Gingrich. Herman Cain saved a business from failing that Pillsbury was about to let go bankrupt. Those stores were largely in minority neighborhoods and provided employment "IN" those neighborhoods. It is amazing that the left criticizes businesses for abandoning minority neighborhoods and then labels them "exploiters" when they succeed and create jobs there! Your harping about child labor leads me to believe you are from a privileged up bringing and have no idea how much a job is worth. All of your prattling about child labor makes it appear as if there is no upward mobility in life. As a product of "child labor" my life proves you wrong, but better than that the statistics prove you wrong; people move up the scale as they better themselves.
Global commerce isn't evil of itself. You are involved in a movement that is largely financed by the Global predator George Soros who has made a mega fortune destroying Banks, Economies and Nations. Amazing, the hypocrisy!
(Again Bill post another socialist assessment of the glories of the Social Security System and when I refuted it he removed the entry.)
Things As They Are:
Bill, your assumptions are based on money that doesn't presently exist, is a mere promissory note from the government and part of our National Debt. Why not allow younger workers to choose the strictly government plan or a government backed private plan? What is wrong with that. It has the advantage of creating "savings" which spur growth in the economy as opposed to more debt which dampens and could kill the economy.
(Next he raved with racial slurs against Herman Cain and against me a Southerner, claiming that the South hates blacks and would implode given two black men on the presidential ticket. And true to form when I refute his claim he deletes the entry.)
Things As They Are:
Bill you are showing typical Leftist racism. Southerners love him - he's ahead in two of the three first primary states and even ahead in the polls in Texas where the Texas governor is a candidate!
(Next he deletes another rant about child labor, Herman Cain exploiting the "black community) and what a heartless *-* I must be. He also deletes my entry refuting his charges. I also questioning his upbringing. My assessment must have struck too close to home. After deleting his rant and my answer he accuses me of HIS behavior.)
Bill:
I love how these folks like Butch ascribe qualities to those that disagree with them that best suit their fantasy world. Sorry to disillussion again. Son of an Air Force enlisted man who attained the rank of Tech Sargeant after 20 years in the military. Working class from the womb to the tomb. I know the value of a job and I know the value of a union job. Now please stop with the evasive tactics and address the issue of child labor laws and quality of life in a society without them.
I love how these folks like Butch ascribe qualities to those that disagree with them that best suit their fantasy world. Sorry to disillussion again. Son of an Air Force enlisted man who attained the rank of Tech Sargeant after 20 years in the military. Working class from the womb to the tomb. I know the value of a job and I know the value of a union job. Now please stop with the evasive tactics and address the issue of child labor laws and quality of life in a society without them.
Things As They Are
Then why would you begrudge a job to a minority, in a minority neighborhood, if the job was at Godfather's Pizza? You make little sense.
Then why would you begrudge a job to a minority, in a minority neighborhood, if the job was at Godfather's Pizza? You make little sense.
Bill, I already have addressed it. Exploitation of Children is wrong, period. But jobs for teenagers isn't exploitation.
Bill:
The George Soros story has been debunked as thoroughly as the "Obama born in Kenya" story. At least we know where you get your "facts" from now, Butch.
Things As They Are:
Bill, you argue so dishonestly. Since you haven't been able to refute that Herman Cain's 9-9-9 Tax Plan answers all of the points in Occupy Springfield's statement about the things that are wrong, now you want to talk about money flow through leftist groups?
For any one on this page with ability to reason. Print off the statement of the Reasons for demonstrations contained on the info page of the Occupy Springfield FB page - and if you want to talk to me about how they are solved with Harman Cain's reforms I will be happy to walk anyone through it. I know demonstrations and holding placard must be lots of fun, but finding the ONLY TRULY RADICAL in the presidential race and actively supporting him might get you what you want a lot faster. Just Saying, <smile> Bill.
Bill Jr:
Repeat (one time): the abolishment of child labor laws is a Republican talking point. Newt didn't pull that out of thin air. The abolishment of unions is past the talking point stage and many of Cain's contributors are lobbying in favor of a 70% criteria for union certification. Putting poverty level jobs in a community only insures that the community will remain impoverished. Putting livable wage jobs in impoverished communities might mean something. For all his bluster and the way his supporters cast his "triumphs," take it from somebody who grew up in a neighborhood that was largely (over 60%) Hispanic and Black - the road forward was not working in a pizza joint - it was a union job at the now defunct General Motors Fisher Body plant.
Repeat (one time): the abolishment of child labor laws is a Republican talking point. Newt didn't pull that out of thin air. The abolishment of unions is past the talking point stage and many of Cain's contributors are lobbying in favor of a 70% criteria for union certification. Putting poverty level jobs in a community only insures that the community will remain impoverished. Putting livable wage jobs in impoverished communities might mean something. For all his bluster and the way his supporters cast his "triumphs," take it from somebody who grew up in a neighborhood that was largely (over 60%) Hispanic and Black - the road forward was not working in a pizza joint - it was a union job at the now defunct General Motors Fisher Body plant.
Things As They Are:
I've known Gingrich since his days as a teacher at West Georgia and YES he did just pull it out of thin air; It is NOT and has never been part of ANY Republican platform.
The Union point - I answer "so"? Do you think that after the economy completely collapses being a union member is going to mean anything? In the 70 I was member of two unions, the United Transportation Union and the Brotherhood Of Locomotive Engineers. I HATED that they used my dues to argue against my one political convictions.
Bill - you tell the story and make the point when you don't mean to - "at the now defunct GM FB plant."
Bill Jr:
Butch, I'm not going to be so rude as to tell you to "fuck off." Don't be so rude as to tell me that I'm being dishonest. I'm still waiting for your example of where child labor ever benefited any society. You've made your "case" for child labor while at the same time exempting Cain from that position. That, my friend, is dishonesty.
Butch, I'm not going to be so rude as to tell you to "fuck off." Don't be so rude as to tell me that I'm being dishonest. I'm still waiting for your example of where child labor ever benefited any society. You've made your "case" for child labor while at the same time exempting Cain from that position. That, my friend, is dishonesty.
Things As They Are:
It benefited me. I went to work in my father's business when I was 9 part time. I learned things at his feet and seeing him dealing with people that have served me a life time. I apprenticed in a piano rebuilding shop beginning at 12 year of age. There is NO one size fits all control from the Central authority that doesn't cause displacement and wrongs. Just this week the Labor department is trying to make it illegal for anyone to work on a farm under the age of 16. We had a small farm also, I was driving a tractor at 10 and enjoying my life. There is nothing wrong with children helping in family businesses, and teenagers having part time jobs. YOU tell me where the harm is in it. I ended up getting to live a very interesting life because of all the experience I had by the time I was grown. Learned to play the piano, self taught - looking over the shoulders of some of the greatest concert artist in the world. Started businesses from scratch, like I witnessed my father doing. It is amazing the left was to sexually educate a 5 year old, but quakes at the idea of children learning real skills.
It benefited me. I went to work in my father's business when I was 9 part time. I learned things at his feet and seeing him dealing with people that have served me a life time. I apprenticed in a piano rebuilding shop beginning at 12 year of age. There is NO one size fits all control from the Central authority that doesn't cause displacement and wrongs. Just this week the Labor department is trying to make it illegal for anyone to work on a farm under the age of 16. We had a small farm also, I was driving a tractor at 10 and enjoying my life. There is nothing wrong with children helping in family businesses, and teenagers having part time jobs. YOU tell me where the harm is in it. I ended up getting to live a very interesting life because of all the experience I had by the time I was grown. Learned to play the piano, self taught - looking over the shoulders of some of the greatest concert artist in the world. Started businesses from scratch, like I witnessed my father doing. It is amazing the left was to sexually educate a 5 year old, but quakes at the idea of children learning real skills.
What you don't get Bill, is there is a difference between the exercise of freedom and the exploitation of a child. My God I see grown men in their 30s and 40s still dependent on their parents because they "haven't found the right position yet." The wasted lives are sad. I've lived my life and enjoyed every day, and paid my own way from the age of 14. Had to after my father reposed. Those years working with him before his repose are precious to me and prepared me to take hold. Tell me where this is exploitive and wrong?
Bill Jr:
The idea of unions is to bargain and speak for the whole, not Butch. "Now defunct" as in the corporate outsourcing of jobs to break unions and lower the standard of living for American workers. I absolutely meant to make that case, and have made it from the beginning. There was far more accomplished for impoverished areas by unionizing than setting up low paying fast food McJobs. If you care to get into the Republican systematic dismantling of those unions to appease corporate lobbying efforts, go to the Library. I'm not going to give you an education on Fb. I can see what your priorities are. It isn't about lifting the working class back to middle class prominance as a whole. It's about lifting up Piano Butch. Didn't your mommy ever tell you that selfishness is not a virtue? Or was your mommy Ayn Rand? I've spent too much time on this already. Bye. Better luck elsewhere in getting support for your candidate.
The idea of unions is to bargain and speak for the whole, not Butch. "Now defunct" as in the corporate outsourcing of jobs to break unions and lower the standard of living for American workers. I absolutely meant to make that case, and have made it from the beginning. There was far more accomplished for impoverished areas by unionizing than setting up low paying fast food McJobs. If you care to get into the Republican systematic dismantling of those unions to appease corporate lobbying efforts, go to the Library. I'm not going to give you an education on Fb. I can see what your priorities are. It isn't about lifting the working class back to middle class prominance as a whole. It's about lifting up Piano Butch. Didn't your mommy ever tell you that selfishness is not a virtue? Or was your mommy Ayn Rand? I've spent too much time on this already. Bye. Better luck elsewhere in getting support for your candidate.
Things As They Are:
By the way, Herman Cain said he supports collective bargaining.
By the way, Herman Cain said he supports collective bargaining.
Bill:
So Did Reagan
Things As They Are:
And the economy boomed under Reagan.
Bill:
Read the end story.
Read the end story.
Things As They Are:
I have, I'm living it. I planned for it. Knew what was coming since they passed the community reinvestment act and started forcing mortgage companies and banks to make sub-prime loans and started allowing loans well in excess of the worth of the property. It isn't by accident that we have massive debt and a stalled economy. But once again to only solution that doesn't create debt slavery or starvation in the streets is to grow the economy. So after all the talk it still remains that Herman Cain is the ONLY candidate who will completely abolish the evil tool of corruption known as the United State Tax Code and implement the smartest tax plan I've ever heard suggested. ALL the establishment HATES this idea because it robs them of their POWER to become wealthy IN OFFICE, or to cash in on lucrative lobbying or consulting jobs after they leave office. Newt knows the insides of this well. IF we have any care for our children and grand children and want to see them relieved of the $48,000 debt to which each child is born, we will stop thinking in USUAL political terms and allow ourselves to be RADICAL enough to elect Herman Cain. NONE of the other issues are going to matter if we CANNOT get this debt load off our future. Ask General Mike Mullins - what does he say is our number one security concern? Our unsustainable debt.
Bill:
As a past FDIC BANK EXAMINER, I'll inform you Piano that the Community Reinvestment Act has never had any relationship at all to sub-prime mortgage loans as the investments were for municipal and government loans (like bonds to schools) start up business laons especially in enterprize zones, and redevelopment loans. Sub-Prime came about in the 90s and since they were in a secondary mortgage market they were exempt from the prudent lending practices that lenders had to operate under, since they were sold off, there was no interest rate risk. They were made for FEE INCOME, that's fees to ORIGINATE the loan, not to hold them. The CRA was for loans and investments HELD not sold off. So again, you interject facts with fiction, provide propoganda from FOX News and wear Republican (probably Tea Party) blinders. Sounds like you are also an OLD Republican, well, wake up, this NEW Republican Party is not your daddy's party anymore. There is nothing patriotic about it, it's for the world economy stage, not about Americans anymore. And one other comment, A child working for/with a parent is a great thing, having a 14 year old kid have to go to work because his parents are not paid a living wage sickens me and it IS a Republican talking point, the elimination of child labor laws was introduced in Missouri by a Republican. That 14 year old working in the back at McDonnalds also will be part time, two of them will probably take a job away from a full time adult, lowing the cost of doiing business. It's back to sweat shops a hundred years ago! It's one thing for a kid to work, it's another if they have to work. Now, don't expect any reply fromme as you start again with more propoganda, just go vote for Cain.....Please do!
As a past FDIC BANK EXAMINER, I'll inform you Piano that the Community Reinvestment Act has never had any relationship at all to sub-prime mortgage loans as the investments were for municipal and government loans (like bonds to schools) start up business laons especially in enterprize zones, and redevelopment loans. Sub-Prime came about in the 90s and since they were in a secondary mortgage market they were exempt from the prudent lending practices that lenders had to operate under, since they were sold off, there was no interest rate risk. They were made for FEE INCOME, that's fees to ORIGINATE the loan, not to hold them. The CRA was for loans and investments HELD not sold off. So again, you interject facts with fiction, provide propoganda from FOX News and wear Republican (probably Tea Party) blinders. Sounds like you are also an OLD Republican, well, wake up, this NEW Republican Party is not your daddy's party anymore. There is nothing patriotic about it, it's for the world economy stage, not about Americans anymore. And one other comment, A child working for/with a parent is a great thing, having a 14 year old kid have to go to work because his parents are not paid a living wage sickens me and it IS a Republican talking point, the elimination of child labor laws was introduced in Missouri by a Republican. That 14 year old working in the back at McDonnalds also will be part time, two of them will probably take a job away from a full time adult, lowing the cost of doiing business. It's back to sweat shops a hundred years ago! It's one thing for a kid to work, it's another if they have to work. Now, don't expect any reply fromme as you start again with more propoganda, just go vote for Cain.....Please do!
Things As They Are:
It is why I NAMED the TWO. The Community Reinvestment Act AND the pressure by congress to make sub-prime loans. English man.
All the things you say about the Republican Party (neo-cons) is true, I agree. THAT is why the candidacy of Herman Cain is so unique. He is about breaking up the crony capitalism which BOTH Democrats and Republicans have engaged.
Sorry, Child labor is NOT a Republican talking point. There is the discussion of freedom vs over-regulation vis a vis teens working part-time. And in years past there was discussion of the equity of minimum wage for a unskilled teen - having to be taught everything, being the same wage as an older worker capable of more responsibility etc. It isn't the EVIL exploitation you try to picture. Radical bills have been introduced by rogue Democrats and Republicans since there have been Democrats and Republicans - you haven't proved anything.
Here's the old sweat shop argument. I owned and ran a piano rebuilding shop with ten full time rebuilders, counting my partner and me. In was a sweaty, dirty place with lots of hazards the drove OHSA crazy, but it was the life blood of the people working there. Was this enterprise EVIL? Certainly not. It is called free enterprise. I.E. The right of property and the pursuit of happiness. Just exactly what would you replace it with?
Bill Jr:
So you ran an unsafe working environment for your employees and reduce it to "free enterprise? Wow! There's an idea every working person can get behind. For the uninitiated... OSHA provides standards for safe working environments, They do not get involved in enforcement unless a) there is a significant injury or death incident b) they receive complaints from employees regarding violations. Butch - I suppose that since you "drove OSHA crazy" your employees must have really hated you. There are significant remedies to fix "sweaty, dirty places with lots of hazards." The fact that you chose more profits over worker safety says volumes about you.
So you ran an unsafe working environment for your employees and reduce it to "free enterprise? Wow! There's an idea every working person can get behind. For the uninitiated... OSHA provides standards for safe working environments, They do not get involved in enforcement unless a) there is a significant injury or death incident b) they receive complaints from employees regarding violations. Butch - I suppose that since you "drove OSHA crazy" your employees must have really hated you. There are significant remedies to fix "sweaty, dirty places with lots of hazards." The fact that you chose more profits over worker safety says volumes about you.
It's impossible to debate sociopaths, so I join Bill Gully Jr. in bowing out of this conversation.
Things As They Are:
You're just liar a Bill. I never had a complaint against me. And in those early days OSHA made regular inspection visits. My wrestling with OSHA was against ridiculous central government one size fits all regulations that didn't fit our work place. We were professional who knew our trade well, knew that hazard and safety measure needed. The OSHA bureaucrat who regularly showed up was a ignorant ass, who knew little except his government paycheck.
And despite the very dangerous work environment we never had a serious injury or a workman's compensation claim. And my employees today remain friends and colleagues. It is very telling that someone of your ilk would call someone creating opportunities to earn a living, learn a trade or increase their skills and knowledge in a trade, a "sociopath." I think anyone with a monad of intelligence can guess who is the mental defective in this conversation.
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